Posted on November 30th, 2011 at 11:25 PM by admin

hey, i have a friend who wants to get into online poker that lives in the US and i have a few questions on how to get him engaged in poker.

1) what merge skin should he play on? which one is the most aesthetically pleasing that is also easy to understand (and fits a hud in properly). is there a merge network that has 2NL? because the only ones ive seen start at 5NL
2) what games should he start playing in order for him to learn?
3) should i let him try and play on his own so he can get the hang of online poker or should i hover over him and give him some advice and tell him to severely NIT up?
4) when should i introduce the HUD to him?

|||Sorry no advice on merge skins, but some thoughts on your other questions….
Quote:Originally Posted by bereziNLX3…
2) what games should he start playing in order for him to learn?Probably best to start with NLHE. Mostly because this is the familiar game from TV. Some people say start with limit HE, to learn the basic maths with lower risk, but personally I think it’s best to start with no limit straight away.
Quote:3) should i let him try and play on his own so he can get the hang of online poker or should i hover over him and give him some advice and tell him to severely NIT up?Show him the ropes then let him get on with it. Review his play with him later. Ask him to explain why he did what he did – what he was trying to achieve, what did he expect would happen, etc. Asking questions in this way will start to get him thinking that every action needs to be deliberate and will get him thinking about these questions when he’s playing.
Don’t hover and give advice during play – it won’t really help him learn. You might want to observe his play – take notes without interrupting and review them later.
Quote:4) when should i introduce the HUD to him?Straight away. Tell him what it does – that it’s recording the hands and displaying statistics on the players, but tell him not to worry about it. Set up the HUD so it only shows VPIP and PFR to start with – explain what they mean (just definition) and that they are used to understand what type of player to help you decide what to do, but tell him not to worry about it for now. When you introduce him to the different player types, then explain how to read that from the stats. When he gets all that, start adding other stats as needed – but this time explain the stat when you add it (eg, add aggression when you introduce him to how to use that knowledge).

|||Quote:Originally Posted by gothninjaSorry no advice on merge skins, but some thoughts on your other questions….

Probably best to start with NLHE. Mostly because this is the familiar game from TV. Some people say start with limit HE, to learn the basic maths with lower risk, but personally I think it’s best to start with no limit straight away.do you think he should start with cash games/sngs/tourneys? 6max or fullring? i figure 6max would be better because he gets put into more spots and it plays faster but then again for a beginner it could be a great way to lose a lot of money quickly. i guess my biggest fear is that he’ll just get bored or something

anyways, thank you for your reply!

|||Probably full ring to start with. Just a personal opinion, but I feel using those first three seats to drill patience and tightness in early position is valuable learning experience.

I don’t see why you shouldn’t mix it up anyway. Some sessions on 6max, some on FR. That way he might learn about relativity in poker quicker than getting stuck in a rut. I expect that’s controversial, since everyone seems to say specialising is important for a beginner. I’m not sure – I suspect sticking to one game might obscure the fundamentals – for example, people learning absolute starting hand charts rather than understanding situations.

Also, introducing him to different games – especially cash, SnGs, MTT SnGs (avoid big tourneys to start with imo) – will help him find something he enjoys, which will help him learn better.

As a friend, you can help him by pointing out the differences and prompting him to ask the right questions about himself and his game (eg, make sure he doesn’t just prefer one because he was on a heater that day).

Hope this helps (btw, I’m not a poker coach, though I have done a lot of training and coaching in other professional areas).

|||tyty

i really need responses on what merge network he should play on.

|||I’m playing on carbon right now and if I’m not mistaken they have 2nl. It’s a decent site nothing special to it. For a US player I don’t think you can go wrong with any of the merge skins.

Posted on November 30th, 2011 at 10:32 PM by admin

Hi , I use to play NL10 6max on-line 3 tables, right now I’m focusing on improve my game along all levels, and I have been doing my homework, and keep studying and improving. Right now I feel like I can beat this level, I am feeling comfortable with my play, I don’t have too many samples in pokertracker to know my real bb/100, but I just feel like i can beat the game, by the way I have had a huge difference between Winnings vs EV All In graph (running with – variance), so, right now i don’t wanna to start changing my game and just wait to build a healthy bankroll to keep moving up (at least 30 BI to start taking shots).

But few days ago, I started to play in a home game, .2/.5 10players, and I notice that I can have a huge edge in the game, the table is always full of fishes, I was impressed, all my rises are usually called, and like 5 or 6 players usually see flops, they almost always don’t respect my c-bets even when they notice that i play very few hands (specially oop), they always put me on AK, and some time they try to take me away from the pot with any sort of hand.

* I have two questions:

How can I adjust my game too exploit them the most?

In online play I use to exploit just 1 or 2, or even 3 fish player, for example isolating them, and having a lot o value with good hands, and cbeting bluffing any Axx or Kxx, avoiding building big pots vs NITs, etc , but in this game I don’t know how can I get the best advantage of all the players, should I play a really a NIT game and increase the amount of my raises?, don’t ever bluff? any ideas? by the way I love to play LAG style in 6max online.

What a good Bankroll managment would you recomend to use in this kind of games?

thanks a lot

fernando

"sorry for my English, is not my first language"

|||You say the players are mostly weak/loose and nearly always call your raises. This throws bluffing out the window. You can increase the size of your raises (4BB-5BB) if you know they will mostly call to get maximum value with your strong hands.

Also if 5-6 players are seeing the flop you can great value from mediocre/marginal hands (75s, J8, 22, 33) as you are getting a great price to enter the pot and likely to get paid when you hit big.

So-

-avoid bluffing
-when you raise preflop, raise big
-play average hands like suited connectors and small pairs when you can get in cheaply

|||Quote:Originally Posted by nismo9-avoid bluffing
-when you raise preflop, raise big
-play average hands like suited connectors and small pairs when you can get in cheaplyThis. Also, if you’re playing LAG now, you should probably tighten up you’re opening range (esp. since you’re going from 6-max to FR).

|||Quote:Originally Posted by nismo9
-avoid bluffing
-when you raise preflop, raise big
-play average hands like suited connectors and small pairs when you can get in cheaplySounds like the game I play every week. Above is accurate. You can make monster overbets pre with premiums and still expect to get one caller. Post flop bet TPTK for value on pretty much every street but be prepared to fold if someone raises not calls. Generally they’ve caught two pair, made the gutshot or other crap they were calling for.
Expect to get outdrawn a lot on turn/river even when you’ve given the wrong odds for them to make the call. Conversely, your implied odds to call a flop bet with a strong draw are massive as these players are never ever laying down top pair when you hit.

It’s not as easy as it sounds and you will have some frustrating evenings but smile through it and profit next time

|||Quote:Originally Posted by nismo9 You can increase the size of your raises (4BB-5BB) if you know they will mostly call to get maximum value with your strong hands.
4bb-5bb is like the standard raise should I consider open-raise bigger?

|||I have a .10/.20 home game that i host and routinly make 60-100$ with my max profit one night being 250$ the best way for me to play in this game is to simply stay tight aggressive, when i am called by a couple of out NIT players i tend to surrender the hand because when they flop the nuts or monster hands they get supper trappy and are willing to check it down because they think that i am so aggressive that i will bet big with air…however i do the opposite against my aggressive players i make them pay me off when i have the nuts and find a way for them to fold when i dont have the nuts value bet bluffs are never good when you play against the fishies, mainly because they dont know what they are seeing… most of the time they may say something like pot odds or tptk is to good for them to laydown when there is 4 to a flush and str8 on the board. but the game is fun i compliment the fish on their terrible plays and if they throw out some wrong stat or theory i just say hey man thats good im going to use that….well good luck with your game as i crush mine to get my bankroll up to take to the casinos

|||Quote:Originally Posted by fertata194bb-5bb is like the standard raise should I consider open-raise bigger?Yeah go for the maximum amount you think you will get value from

|||Quote:Originally Posted by jamesoatesjrif they throw out some wrong stat or theory i just say hey man thats good im going to use that….well good luck with your game as i crush mine to get my bankroll up to take to the casinosI liked that (y), thanks

|||Quote:Originally Posted by johnboy7541This. Also, if you’re playing LAG now, you should probably tighten up you’re opening range (esp. since you’re going from 6-max to FR).Yeahh sure, I had too change my opening range, a looot… too much thighter than before.

|||- Another things, I guess that I should avoid at all 3betting light.

- And I think that there is no point on try to make hero calls, when are thin +ev decisions, if I can get a lot of value on others situations, and have less variance???

Am i right?

|||Yes, in general that is good a plan.

|||Quote:Originally Posted by fertata19- Another things, I guess that I should avoid at all 3betting light.Not necessarily
Quote:- And I think that there is no point on try to make hero calls, when are thin +ev decisions, if I can get a lot of value on others situations, and have less variance???

Am i right?Only if your bankroll isn’t sufficient to withstand variance.

|||Open raise as high as people will still call, if thats 8-10 BB – then open that much. Bet hard when you have a big hand and get it all in quick if you have the nuts. These people will call you with their pairs.

Posted on November 30th, 2011 at 10:13 PM by admin

Which poker software provides you with feature that you don’t have to manually register for every sit n go and how does it work?

Cheers!!

|||Table Ninja.

Give the free trial a whirl.

|||ok, thanks.

Posted on November 30th, 2011 at 8:39 PM by admin

Been playing recreationally for about a year now, and recently decided to ‘do the right thing’ and actually think about what I’m doing and make the right decisions in the right spots at a level I can afford for my BR. So…..

Looking for advice and whether my thought processes here are correct as this is a spot I’ve come up against before:

Villain is 20/13/2.3 over 152 hands and is a winning player of 1 BI in our history. I have no specific reads other than he is fairly straightforward in his play, will float a fcb for a draw etc.

My stats over 13k hands are 27/20/2.9 and this is probably fairly reflective of how I was playing on this table at the time.

Seat 1: kiddylad ($11.20 in chips)
Seat 2: Go$$ip ($10.44 in chips)
Seat 3: HERO ($15.32 in chips)
Seat 4: seaget ($10.57 in chips)
Seat 5: 8th wonders ($10 in chips)
Seat 6: VILLAIN ($11.18 in chips)
kiddylad: posts small blind $0.05
Go$$ip: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Dunna100 [Qc Qh]
Dunna100: raises $0.20 to $0.30
2 folds, VILLAIN calls, blinds fold

*** FLOP *** [9c Jh 6s]

Dunna100: bets $0.48
VILLAIN: raises $0.48 to $0.96
Dunna100: raises $1.24 to $2.20
VILLAIN: calls $1.24

*** TURN *** [9c Jh 6s] [6c]

So, my thought process on the flop was VILLAIN either has an overpair, or a draw he is playing aggressively when he rr’s my fcb. I do not think he has made trips or 2 pair as I think he would 4bet shove the flop. I’m also thinking if he had a better overpair than my queens he would have 3bet pf, as I said he normally plays fairly straightforward. So, I think he has a draw, probably an open-ender like QT which is why he click raised my fcb and why he’ll call a 3bet and probably fold a blank turn to another bet.
The turn comes another 6, so, your thoughts here please?

Really just trying to understand if my thought processes are correct or what anyone would advise in this spot?

Spoiler:
HERO: bets $12.82 and is all-in
VILLAIN: calls $8.68 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($4.14) returned to Dunna100
*** RIVER *** [9c Jh 6s 6c] [4c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Dunna100: shows [Qc Qh] (two pair, Queens and Sixes)
VILLAIN: shows [6d 7d] (three of a kind, Sixes)

|||Dunna, Welcome to the forum. I will let others who are better players than I answer your strat question but I want to point out some ways you can get better responses on hand posts by formatting your post differently.

You obviously attempted to post this optimally, so I think your question is deserving of the forums efforts to help, you have helped them try to help you by:

* Doing a nice job of posting stats and reads and explaining your thinking.

You can help more by:

* Converting your hand using the hand converter making it more readable. (I would convert it in this response but would need the entire history including the header to do that.)

* not posting any of the hand beyond the point of your question, especially do not post the results, even in a spoiler.

There is an article in the current BQ digest (stickied above) discussing hand posting methodology, what and why. If you take the time to read that article and read the BQ FAQ you will take some important steps to getting all you can from this forum.

Link to BQ Digest
Ling to BQ FAQ

|||Pretty standard. You played it fine. He prob 3bets because the flop is perfect for a cbet, hence he expects one from you and is now reacting accordingly. Don’t put people who 3bet on a draw, they usualy have a piece of the flop and are scared of the draw, big difference.

When the board pairs, ALWAYS proceed with CAUTION.
If a straight forward kinda weak / nit player (he’s kinda weak giving his pfr) starts waking up ALWAYS proceed with CAUTION.
If a LAG (not a maniac) keeps betting when the money in the middle is big, ALWAYS proceed with CAUTION (they usualy try to push you off the small pots, if the money becomes serious they usualy have the goods).
NEVER EVER go broke with one pair.

Keep this in your head and you’ll be fine at this level.

|||Minraises are actually very dangerous and a bit of a warning sign to back off. Especially when he flats your min 3bet alarm bells should be going off.

You say he’s a straightforward player who will generally be playing his draws passively so you should know to rule a straight draw out.

Your raise on the flop is pretty sick tbh thats not getting rid of anything he holds. I like to either call here see the turn and act from there or just shove in. Overpair is very unlikely as you say he’s a straightforward player and would 3bet pre.

|||no point shoving turn for double pot. just bet like $3 then rest on the river. that is pretty nut turn for u since J9 is counterfeited and if he has any other paired hands they are now drawing to 3 less outs.

oh yea, convert hand history. i dont even know if i have the story right…cant read unconverted HHs

|||Thanks for the responses guys, apologies for the format!

Think I did kinda answer my own question, in that my read was that he was playing straightforward so I should have been wary. That said, i still think that was a pretty agg rr on the flop for him with bottom pair/runner runner draw. I saw the turn 6 as a blank, and as his stack was only $8ish and the pot $5ish, didn’t see the point of giving him opportunity to catch (as obviously in the micros people will just call and call no matter what the odds) and was happy to take it down there and then. If any straightening card had come out I would have ended up check folding the river anyway (or paying im off – same outcome!)

Posted on November 30th, 2011 at 7:42 PM by admin

I watched a tun of poker videos read alot of books and I wanted to start from the bottom and work my way up in PLO but I have lost $20 in NL2 PLO

why I ask if it can be "beat" is because im wondering if because in PLO the equitys run so close even ****ty players are winning with hands that im dominating more regularly then i like (because they never fold and always are going to sd with me)

my issue with PLO @ 1c/2c is

- if i check they check 80% of the time no matter what they hold good or bad
- if i bet they call 80% no matter what they hold (good or bad)
- the 20% they min raise I see them doing it with overpairs, Top pair, and all sort of crap like that regularly
- Most people are playing like 70/5/0 to 90/3/0
- I can tighten my range but it seems I break even at best and slowly bleed down over time

Now this isnt a QQ thread or "should i move up where they respect my raises" its actually an honest question

is 1c/2c PLO just too crazy and full of variance go grow a br from $20 to $50 I have so much trouble putting people on ranges because they play and call anything and raising so randomly with random hands that dont make sense so my ranges are so wide they r nearly useless or non existent. I cant profitably cbet or steal even small pots because Im getting called like 90% of the time no matter what.

Is there any Logic behind 1c/2c is too crazy to buid a BR and maybe i should skip to 2c/5c ? where The players are a little less crazy?

or am I just a noob and i need to figure out a style of play to beat 1c/2c ?

|||I’d assume the rake is terribad at those stakes. but it’s very beatable. make good hands, value bet, and protect against draws if you’re hand is vulnerable. PLO is a drawing game so you have to be ready to get outdrawn on and make big laydowns, if people are calling too much then only value bet and eliminate bluffing from your range. anything 25PLO and above is super nitty post flop because everyone assumes you’re behind when you don’t have the nuts or a huge draw, so you can get more and more creative with lines and ranges, but when it’s basically play money, you may aswell be burning the money trying to bluff 1c/2c player.

|||rake is really bad, the ‘regs’ are mostly all multi-tabling breakeven nits, the fish are usually weak/passive as opposed to aggresive which all adds up to it being difficult to win for a good bb/100. That being said, players make HUGE mistakes hand after hand at these stakes are are definitely exploitable.

I usually open tables and play HU/short handed for as long as I can to avoid the game becoming extremely nitty, and when that does happen I simply close the table and open new ones (unless there is a massive fish who is reloading or someone who is on uber tilt). The rake is bad but the games are still easily beatable if you understand equity/ranges and know when to hit the fold button

|||Yes.

I did something similar as you try and I´ve been beating the Limit for $3/hour 16tabling over 40k Hands.

Actually, I think it´s the easiest money on the Internet (It´s close between PLO8 2 and PLO, the play on PLO8 2 is even worse, but the Rake becomes a problem with the splitpotdynamic)

The trick is not to think what you have read in Jeff Hwangs Advanced PLO Series about floating, loose 3betting IP. 3 Barrel Bluffing etc would be suitable for this Limit. This is a completly different Game and your task is to apply a sound ABC PLO Strategy.

Just Buy In for the Maximum (this is Important because your success depends mostly on getting max Value with your Big Hands), play only the Top 20% percent of your hands (You can get slightly looser from in Late Position but only slightly, as there is not much fold Equity which is a lot of the Value of these hands) and if you get raised postflop at any point, be aware that it is in 99% of the time the nuts or something close to it and act accordingly (mostly folding)

Youre opposition is almost exclusively (the regulars to a lesser extent, but I have never found anyone who played a REALLY solid ABC) loose passive, so your main weapon is to play hands with a better playability then theirs in Position, flop surperior hands and valuetown them.

+ev bluffing spots are rare, maybe in deepstacked confrontations on locked boards against an also deepstacked opponent, as the "regulars" usually refuse to stack off deepstacks in marginal situations (which is ok, as noone actually really bluffs that much on this limit)

Another important Issue to get a sound understanding of Hand Values and learn to keep the small with stuff like middle set if your opponent bets into you.

Easy Game.

Edit: Although your Variance is seemingly slower than on every other PLO Limit, $20 Swings are actually super standard, I had a 8k Hands losing stretch at the beginning.

You want at least a $100 BR for this.

|||Quote:Originally Posted by HeyitsClay- if i check they check 80% of the time no matter what they hold good or bad
- if i bet they call 80% no matter what they hold (good or bad)
- the 20% they min raise I see them doing it with overpairs, Top pair, and all sort of crap like that regularly
- Most people are playing like 70/5/0 to 90/3/0If you know what they’re going to do and you know their range then you should be crushing them over a decent sample.

Quote:Originally Posted by HeyitsClayI have so much trouble putting people on ranges because they play and call anything and raising so randomly with random hands that dont make sense so my ranges are so wide they r nearly useless or non existentThis statement is completely contradictory. If they call "anything" then there’s your range. Sounds like pretty useful information to me. You still have to weigh your hand up against their range, so like all microstakes, you want to be playing good hands and in position.

In short, if you can’t beat a game at a lower buyin then you won’t beat the same game at a higher buyin.

Quote:Originally Posted by HeyitsClay1c/2c is too crazy to buid a BR and maybe i should skip to 2c/5c ? where The players are a little less crazy?Or you could move up to where they respect your raises

Quote:Originally Posted by HeyitsClayor am I just a noob and i need to figure out a style of play to beat 1c/2c ?Basically this. Do this first and work out how to beat morons before you start playing against people who, well, aren’t morons.

TT

|||Thanks for all the great feed back, I shall return to PLO2 !

Thanks alot guys !

|||i crush 1c/2c pretty hard…just dont go broke too light and check/call a lot

Edit: play as deep deep deep as possible

|||1c/2c PLO = Shovel against the Rake…IMO

|||The 1c/2c games are so easy I was crushing them when I didn’t even know what I was doing. People at those levels bet, bet and bet some more on weak holdings and unlikely to reach draws. I’m anything but a nit personally but when I first started playing I was since I didn’t really know what was going on. Wait for your nuts and collect 2 buy-ins from the other guys holding the 7th and 8th nut draws..

Not great advice but at that level it works.

|||Unbeatable…that’s my PTR results.

I think this guy’s a fish and have played him before, really didn’t rate his game but he seems to be doing something right/able to run consistently hot.

|||Quote:Originally Posted by MasqUnbeatable…that’s my PTR results.

I think this guy’s a fish and have played him before, really didn’t rate his game but he seems to be doing something right/able to run consistently hot.

ru on a challenge or something like that or why do you play plo2

|||There’s no challenge and I haven’t played it lately. I started a bankroll with $100 and wanted to play PLO so that seemed a logical place to start. One possible mistake I made was I only played 100bb so would have won a lot more if I bought in deep in the games I played.

|||Quote:Originally Posted by MasqThere’s no challenge and I haven’t played it lately. I started a bankroll with $100 and wanted to play PLO so that seemed a logical place to start. One possible mistake I made was I only played 100bb so would have won a lot more if I bought in deep in the games I played.nice results! how many tables and vpps did you do?

|||Quote:Originally Posted by worplernice results! how many tables and vpps did you do?Not been so great lately, 0.05/0.10 hasn’t been kind to me. Dropped about $600 in those games last year. I got about 50-60k VPP last year. Now playing about 10-13 tables (I was playing about 16-18 last year), think i’m around 30-40k VPP this year (i’ll have to check that, but I want to make 15k VPP in november/december.) I didn’t play much and I was playing 0.01/0.02 and some NLH earlier in the year.

|||Quote:Originally Posted by MasqThere’s no challenge and I haven’t played it lately. I started a bankroll with $100 and wanted to play PLO so that seemed a logical place to start. One possible mistake I made was I only played 100bb so would have won a lot more if I bought in deep in the games I played.Thats cool. I started out with 50$ ( bit short ) and played 4-6 tables deep. Thought that was the right strategy. Luckily i never lost more than a few buyins.

Posted on November 30th, 2011 at 5:46 PM by admin

I play on Pokerstars and Im looking for someone to practise Poker with (playmoney). I’m thinking of download the home game software and organise a home game. I’m in London btw so ideally I want to keep it local.

Anyone interested?

|||il play lol

Posted on November 30th, 2011 at 4:49 PM by admin

Is poker table rating’s working ok? like it keeps trying to redirect me and has been doing this for a few weeks when i use internet explorer instead of firefox i can log in but its about 2 weeks behind?

|||Quote:Originally Posted by ScythIs poker table rating’s working ok? like it keeps trying to redirect me and has been doing this for a few weeks when i use internet explorer instead of firefox i can log in but its about 2 weeks behind?PTR was under maintenance yesterday as I recall and some hands were missing but it seems to be working fine now. I use Google Chrome.

|||It’s been intermittently flaky for several weeks, with the server not responding to requests, graphs not loading, and whole sessions not being detailed.
As well as PTR’s server having issues, there were rumours that Pokerstars has upped its game in blocking PTR from observing so many tables. Some people are really pleased about PTR’s problems. Others don’t care one way or the other. :/

|||they didnt track my hands properly

|||I just checked my stats and it’s missed 2300 of the last 3000 hands I played. My ego is slightly bruised by this because I’ve been on a heater and should be in the Top 50 players of Pokerstars 2NL this week, but it’s still listing me as breaking even.
Seriously though, it’s not a service I’d pay money for (since I have HEM). If other people rely on PTR stats then more fool them.

|||I tried using it on firefox and it always went to a blank screen, went on with IE and it worked fine, all my hands were there yesterday. The exception was that they didn’t track any of my PLO hands, other then that it tracked my hold em accordingly

Posted on November 30th, 2011 at 4:45 PM by admin

consistently, my #1 winning hand is always when I fill an Ax suited flush fill.

like Ace-7 hearts, that gets filled by the time we get to the river.

that’s the hand that makes me the most money.

i’m a relatively bad new brick and mortar player. nit-rock/tight weak

any insights on how many bbs of a raise from mid or later position player you’d call/raise, if you were holding that, eg A5hearts preflop?

i don’t want to pay up too much preflop just to see the flop, and have it totally miss my flush draw, so I usually fold to mid-pot or pot-size preflop calls/raises.

to the decent players, how do you usually play ace-rag suited, from different positions, especially "how much of a preflop raise will you call"?

thanks (I’m going to vegas next week, so trying to prepare now)

|||its really dependant on your villian, a nit isnt going to pay you without a monster and if he holds say top pair ive found you can normally keep value betting around 1/2 pot and they wont fold it. If its a LAG then you could prly lead out 3/4ths each street and jam river.

:]

|||It’s not as simple as saying "I’ll always call 4bbs or 5bbs". It depends on how many other players have already called pre-flop, and how aggressive the table is in general. If I’m in position and can see a flop multiway, I’ll call with Ax suited if I’m only contributing 25% of the pre-flop pot, as the implied odds can be high. If there are several limpers, it’s even better. You just have to keep saying to yourself that you’ll fold if you don’t get the draw or 2 pr on the flop. Getting married to an ace with no kicker is a good way to go broke.
In early position, you’re probably better off just dumping the hand.

|||It all depends on the situation. I mix it up so much it is really hard to say. I’ll open it up with AXs and I will 3bet with the same exact hand at times IP. Also the value isn’t just hitting your draw. I play all of my draws very aggressively and I will usually lead out with them or reraise if I think I can push my opponent off his hand. The only think I hate when I play Axs is when I hit my ace and feel committed to the hand. Don’t feel committed to the pot if you have top pair and your opponent likely has it too

|||Suited aces is one of my best bluffing hands. I’ll liberally open and 3bet with it. The best thing about A8s- is how easy it is to throw away if anyone plays back, and the second best thing is that it can hit a wide range of trips, an unlikely 2 pair, and occasionally draws to the nuts. The other good thing about it is that I get it just enough times to make my opening and 3betting numbers look sensible.

I’m not often calling with A7s though.

|||hey that all makes sense, thanks… i find that filling an Axs always gives me monster pots, as often someone else has trips, or I remember one hand in particular, just playing LHE at the excalibur, villian had a K-high flush and bet as much as the table would allow, which i matched and won the hand with… also good for getting an early deep stack in tourneys if you’re lucky enough to get one in the first half hour (rare).

i usually don’t play draws strongly, esp against early position raisers who aren’t TAG style players… this one though, esp if hit an A on the flop for AAxs is a favorite situation

|||Quote:Originally Posted by uncleholdem…playing LHE…Good to know. Most of what people said itt applies to no-limit.

|||If no limit then a lot depends on stack sizes. You can’t say "I will call an x bb raise" with no context as in no limit the playability of drawing hands depends hugely on how much is behind. As an example if you only have 40bb then a hand like A5s becomes almost unplayable against a raise of almost any size. On the other end if the table is quite deep e.g. lots of 200bb+ stacks and someone opens early and there are several callers you can profitably call a relatively large raise with the same hand. With Axs hands it is critical you have position, they are not a hand to try to play from early position, no different to suited connectors.

|||good to know about avoiding them in early position, thanks — q’s are for tournament play as well.. eg if I’m shortstacked and have Axs and any pair on the flop matches either the A or x, I’d shove… while early in tournament play, right re being more selective about how to raise relative to position and villian stack sizes… makes sense

Posted on November 30th, 2011 at 3:58 PM by admin

I think Galfond posted this hand in his Jman well, but I can’t find it. Phil wrote that Tom Dwan was the best poker thinker that he’d met and he gave an example something like this (thanks if anyone can find the post and link it):

Phil was playing an aggressive player HU and had K3 suited. Phil raised and called a 3-bet pre and the flop came down pretty dry and King-high. Something like K85r, the guy bets and Phil calls; turn was a blank (I think), the guy bet again and Phil called; the river was maybe a 10 and the guy bet again.
So the board reads something like: K852T with no flush possibility.

Phil said that he was asking Tom if he thought the river was a call. Tom said something to the effect of, "I think a call is better than a fold, but I’d probably shove" because of the villain’s calling range.

I assume that he meant villian’s calling range was extremely narrow and villain would think that he was up against a set and fold out some better hands (TPGK, two pair?).

My question is this: How do you calculate whether it’s better to call there with what is probably the best hand or to shove? Is there a way to use Pokerstove and % ranges to figure it out?

|||The simple answer is that’s why they’re Phil and Tom. Us mortals can’t even begin to understand why they do what they do. Just watch and admire.

|||Doing the math away from the table isn’t particularly hard.

What is hard is correctly estimating the villain’s range in the first place (a very important variable in the math equation). Also difficult is then estimating, at the table, the result of the math if you take different courses of action.

Galfond and Dwan are better at this than most, to put it mildly.

As for the hand in question: Simply stated …. Yes, he thought by shoving he would fold out a lot of better hands. He thought that for the price he was getting on a shove he would fold out enough hands to make it more profitable than what he would expect to win by calling.

This may not be specific enough to be overly helpful to you. Sorry, I just don’t want to go into it right now. Maybe somebody else can fill in the how to do the math details.

|||Odds on durrrr or jman showing up itt?

|||Quote:Originally Posted by wild willOdds on durrrr or jman showing up itt?Extremely poor IMO.

|||Quote:Originally Posted by wild willOdds on durrrr or jman showing up itt?tree fiddy

I remember reading that and went when I came to that part, so amazing

|||Maybe this…

Everyone knows a K-high flop is unlikely to hit the pf caller and is a good flop to cbet. Because everyone knows that, it’s a good flop to float too, so following cbet/call on the flop getting a blank on the turn is a good spot for a second barrel. And the same with a third barrel on the river.

Calling the river bet will likely win the pot. But raising the river often represents a bluff – because that’s exactly what you’d expect a floater to do (and especially what you’d expect durrrr to do). So there’s a good chance of getting called with worse than top pair. There’s a chance some better Ks might fold (K4,6,7), but not many.

So I’m thinking it’s not so much the calling range is narrow – rather that he’s going to get paid off often with worse.

Does that make any sense?

|||Quote:Originally Posted by gothninjaMaybe this…
Calling the river bet will likely win the pot. But raising the river often represents a bluff – because that’s exactly what you’d expect a floater to do. So there’s a good chance of getting called with worse than top pair. There’s a chance some better Ks might fold (K4,6,7), but not many.

Does that make any sense?You think he was raising to get called by a bluff catcher (because Galfond’s range would look really, really polarized)? I don’t think that’s right. What is the villain’s calling range that is beaten by top pair, no kicker? Even the top of the worse one pair hands (QQ, JJ, AT) are clearly bluff catchers.

I think Durr’s point was that Galfond could fold out all but the very, very top of the villain’s range (KK, TT, AA?, AK?). But honestly I’m still confused about how to figure it out.

Anyone else want to comment on gothninja’s idea that Durr was suggesting that Galfond could have induced a call with worse than top pair no kicker?

|||Quote:Originally Posted by MezzaninhoYou think he was raising to get called by a bluff catcher (because Galfond’s range would look really, really polarized)?No. I think durrrr would raise to get called by a bluff catcher (because durrrr‘s range would look heavily towards bluffing). At least that would be a large part of it – of course also this is a line that represents a lot of strength. So maybe it has a chance to fold out some better hands a fair amount of time and to get some worse ones to call a fair amount of time. At least it puts the opponent to a tough decision where they’re going to be making a mistake very often.

Not claiming to be right, of course (I ain’t durrrr – nowhere near)

|||I’m no NL player but durrrr might be thinking calling with K3 which might be in his opinion a bad call since most likely your beaten to a better kicker but shoving representing two pair a set etc, and will put opponent in a tough spot and see many fold lots of times.

|||If you think they will fold the best hand then push!

|||Quote:Originally Posted by gothninjaNo. I think durrrr would raise to get called by a bluff catcher (because durrrr‘s range would look heavily towards bluffing). At least that would be a large part of it – of course also this is a line that represents a lot of strength. So maybe it has a chance to fold out some better hands a fair amount of time and to get some worse ones to call a fair amount of time. At least it puts the opponent to a tough decision where they’re going to be making a mistake very often.

Not claiming to be right, of course (I ain’t durrrr – nowhere near) Sorry, I didn’t mean to misrepresent your point. I agree that the image of the hero is is an important aspect.
However, how does it make sense to say you’re going to fold out better and get called by worse? I guess he could spaz call with junk like mid pairs occasionally, but he only has two choices, call or fold. So he’s not going to call with less than top pair (QQ, JJ, 2nd pair) and fold top pair, good kicker.

I agree that it will make for a very tough decision unless he’s super strong or on a pure bluff. And even if the shove isn’t the most + EV play, if villain does call and the hands are turned up it would probably blow his mind.

|||Sometimes its going to be to fold out the bottom of a strongish range and sometimes its going to be for value against the bottom/middle of a weak range by repping a bluff. Its not always just simply to fold out a better hand even though your hand is decent.

Its also only for very limited and scarce situations that you can do this. Usually at least 1-2k hand history between two players with the knowledge that one player can vbet say TT on K38 J 2 board. Then once in a blue moon you can jam your JQhh that you floated on the flop with because your value range here is soooo incredibly thin. Most of the time, Kx and Jx would call or fold the river since there is no value in raising as the bettors range is strong top pair type hands and bluffs.

Then this jam looks very often like a bluff, which means that the original TT = AA here and it simply becomes a question of bluffing frequencies and the TT could quite easily level himself into a call depending on opponent history and tendencies. Of course you need a lot of history to do this and to know when its for value against a thin TT and when you are bluffing against AK in this spot, which will dictate how often you should do it.

Basically at any level below high-mid stakes you dont put in enough hands against any one opponent for this to even be applicable. Its much more common in HUNL than 6m also.
Lower players will think "oh I know about this concept now" and try it out and just own themselves so hard and ask "how could he call me there, my range…blah blah blah… his range … blah blah blah…he’s so bad, he should have known that I knew that he knew that…blah blah blah.."

At the same time, this can also be used as a bluff. A very basic example is a hand like ATs on 56J J 2 on the BTN against a CO open who opens 35%. Say we call pre and he 3 barrels here. His range is heavily weighted towards air here, some of that air is going to be Ax/KQ/78ss type hands.
Sometimes he is going to show up with a TT type hand as well. Obviously there are some KJ QJ in his range too. Well, depending on the opponent and his 3barrel% and a bunch of other stuff, this could be a spot where call>fold. However, you know that he could very well be bluffing with the best of it, say AQ, or have something that doesnt really want to take heat like a 99 here. Again, depending on his tendencies (everything does, thats why this is such a limited concept) you can turn your AT into a bluff, even though it has mediocre showdown value here. This probably isnt the best spot to do it since 78 whiffed and you dont have much in your value range here, but thats the general idea. If he’s seen you slowplay sets on dry rainbow boards or something then it makes it a little better.

Basically, if you have to ask, dont do it. These concepts generally are derivatives of thin value bets and knowing when the opponent is going for thin value, which to be honest doesnt happen much at small stakes (and I think thats most low level players biggest leaks)

|||Quote:Originally Posted by Mezzaninho…how does it make sense to say you’re going to fold out better and get called by worse? I guess he could spaz call with junk like mid pairs occasionally, but he only has two choices, call or fold. So he’s not going to call with less than top pair (QQ, JJ, 2nd pair) and fold top pair, good kicker.Yeah – well, he can’t do both obviously, because he’s only got one hand and one call. What I’m saying is that the shove gives him the chance to make a mistake with the majority of his range – which might include calling with worse (eg, QQ, even A-high), and might including folding better (eg, K6). The raiser’s range is highly polarised (everyone knows durrrr is capable of sick river bluffs!) and nearly everything the caller could have is either way ahead or way behind – so it’s guesswork which way he will go with any hand. It comes down to "do you feel lucky?" which is the worst decision to have to make.

|||Quote:Originally Posted by TyroberIf you think they will fold the best hand then push!I don’t think it’s that simple. Clearly, villain won’t fold the nuts, or the second nuts, or probably any other set. But I think the question has to be solved based on how wide villain’s value is, how polarized it is (what % of bluffs he has), and how much of villain’s value range that beats the hero will he fold. I’m not sure how to calculate it, though.

For an extreme example, if the villain is betting only with the nuts (a set of kings) or a bluff, there’s no point in raising. Even though there’s only one combo of a set of kings and maybe hundreds of combos of bluffs, shoving can only lose money.

Posted on November 30th, 2011 at 3:10 PM by admin

Hi,
Is there a thread where a player went from 100$(say) to several thousand $$s playing Double or Nothing tournaments??
I came across so many threads where someone went from 100s to several 1000$s of $$s playing cash games or MTTs.
As I’m new here I could’nt find an inspirational thread for DoN. If u can find 1 , can u please kindly post the link below.

Thanks in advance.
A budding DoN player

|||I have around 200$ to start with and I assume these are good to build up your BR till say 3000$ ??

|||Can you beat them? If memory serves, they are usually 10 handed, top 5 double, bottom 5 get nothing, and 10% tournament entry fees. So, if you can consistently beat 6 out of 10 you will be in the profit area. If you can only beat 5 out of 10, you’re still losing money. Also, these MTTs have a much different risk:reward ratio for winning players.

|||Quote:Originally Posted by ractar If you can only beat 5 out of 10, you’re still losing money.If you beat 5 players you’ll be in the money?

|||Quote:Originally Posted by VISH MASTERHi,
Is there a thread where a player went from 100$(say) to several thousand $$s playing Double or Nothing tournaments??
I came across so many threads where someone went from 100s to several 1000$s of $$s playing cash games or MTTs.
As I’m new here I could’nt find an inspirational thread for DoN. If u can find 1 , can u please kindly post the link below.

Thanks in advance.
A budding DoN player I don’t know about inspirational threads, but most serious DoN players are rakeback pros, grinding hundreds of tourneys each day, breaking even in the game and making money off the rakeback. As someone who played around 13,000 of them before moving on to something better, I can assure you that there is very little inspiration to be had from them.

Quote:Originally Posted by nismo9If you beat 5 players you’ll be in the money?He meant that if you only cash 5 games out of 10 you’ll be losing money to the rake; he wasn’t referring to how many players you beat.

TT

|||Quote:Originally Posted by TeamTrousersI don’t know about inspirational threads, but most serious DoN players are rakeback pros, grinding hundreds of tourneys each day, breaking even in the game and making money off the rakeback. As someone who played around 13,000 of them before moving on to something better, I can assure you that there is very little inspiration to be had from them.

He meant that if you only cash 5 games out of 10 you’ll be losing money to the rake; he wasn’t referring to how many players you beat.

TT ohhhhhhh IC

|||Thanks guys, I’ve been playing till 5$ at i-poker and 888 till now with an ROI of 10%, ITM= 60% (around), just wanted to compare with someone else to get an idea of where I stand. So, was basically looking for a graph over say 3k tourneys or so.
DON are easy to build BR from micros (say start wit 50$ and easily reach 800$) where u can play real poker (cash or normal Sngs).
If a player is good , he can make say 2000$ a month playing DON at around 20$ avg.

Too bad there is no such DoN graph in such a big forum

@- team trousers
Quote:As someone who played around 13,000 of them before moving on to something betterCan u post the graph for 13k tourneys please.

|||***Official DoN Strategy Thread*** (Read OP)
***Official DoN Strategy Thread***

IMO, DoNs are dead since Stars switched to Fifty50s. The rake is too high everywhere else and there’s no traffic except the lowest stakes.

|||Hey,
Thanks, I’ve already seen the thread when searching itself.
I have read a ton of strategies,etc,etc.
But I could’nt find a graph to see anything in reality.
Hope u guys understand what I say.

Thanks a lot.

|||The Ultimate Micro Grinder – Supernova playing $1 DoN

Seriously though, DoNs are dead in the water. I’d recommend learning to play actual poker instead

|||Quote:Originally Posted by nismo9If you beat 5 players you’ll be in the money?Sorry, 5 out of 10 DoN S&Gs.

|||Didn’t join Stars until shortly after the DoNs were gone.
I can see how these may be profitable, but they don’t sound enjoyable to me at all (I do like the 50fiftys).
Maybe I’m mistaken.

|||Quote:Originally Posted by VISH MASTER@- team trousers

Can u post the graph for 13k tourneys please.Hmm, I don’t have anything to hand, and it’s depressingly bad actually considering the effort which went into them, maybe only about $2,500 profit or so, but anyway, if you want to see it then go to sharkscope and select me for SNGs only on Stars (SN same as here) and it’s mainly the first half of my graph. Of course, if you have a sharkscope subscription then you can actually add the filter for DoN and see it exactly yourself.

Anyway, DoNs are ripe for collusion, and some sites are less diligent about stopping cheats than Stars are; they quit offering DoNs a few months after a huge cheating ring was uncovered.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28…-stars-791760/

TT

|||Quote:Didn’t join Stars until shortly after the DoNs were gone.
I can see how these may be profitable, but they don’t sound enjoyable to me at all (I do like the 50fiftys).
Maybe I’m mistaken.U r right, but these are very good 2 build ur roll from 100$ to say 3000$ even for a beginner . As there is’nt much of thinking going on, after 5000$ish BR, I’ll surely quit these and play real poker

As far as traffic is concerened, 888 is good (u can easily play over 150 of these a day). Next is i-poker. It sucks that stars stopped them, will need some roll to try 50-50s too, maybe after 1000$. (when volume becomes a concern).
200 a day is achievable in 888.

|||Bump